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Post by Erik on Mar 16, 2015 8:29:49 GMT -8
Hey guys my irl mate Martin told me about determinism today and it was very interesting to hear about ^^ I totally suck at explaining so... XD
It is like nothing is ''random'' everything that is happening here in the universe is ''decided'' you can like calculate that I will sit here writing this at this moment the moment the universe started or whatever! We experience ''free will'' but this is just an illusion, everything we think is based on the environment and reactions in our brain or something XD And at last something about the theory is that all of this will happen again and aain for all eternity o.o like big bang, human race, noble F3, human race dies, end of the universe - and then new big bang and everything else exactly the same way all over again and again and again and again!! =O
I find this very interesting ^O^ I am very bad at sounding smart and all that and explaining well so you should google it or something ^^
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Post by GeishaChan on Mar 16, 2015 9:18:38 GMT -8
Hmm that is interesting to think about. That theory would strengthen the theory of rebirth and living multiple lives.
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Post by Erwin on Mar 16, 2015 9:45:19 GMT -8
Terminator 2: "There is no fate but what we make for ourselves." My personal beliefs about the universe are more in line with those espoused in Terminator 2. It's an interesting subject, and one on which we can never truly be sure. I was actually raised a Christian and harbored some Calvinist beliefs at one point, but have since come to reject virtually all of them, foremost among which is that Calvinist idea of predestination. From a Christian standpoint, if God is good, then why would he predestine people to sin and then punish them for it? It's simply ludicrous, and this is merely one of many reasons. From a logical positivist standpoint, it's within the realm of possibility that we live in a predetermined universe, but we don't have just cause for believing so. Use the principle of Occam's Razor, a largely true maxim which basically states that "the explanation which assumes the least amount of unfalsifiable claims for any given hypothesis should be the most acceptable one." Extending that to reality/metaphysics, we can point to things such as God or the Flying Spaghetti Monster and say that they're absurd, because there is no good reason for believing in them and that doing so is predicated on a lot more unfalsifiable assumptions than simply saying that the universe happened via the big bang and then abiogenesis + evolution played a large part in shaping life as we know it. So, extending Occam's Razor to the discussion on determinism, we can first observe that it feels like we have free will. And though we can't prove that we definitely have free will, it predicates less assumptions than saying that everything is predetermined. Were there more evidence that the world is predetermined (and such evidence will never exist because by nature it's something you can't prove, unless Phenomenologically speaking we ALL have a collective notion that we're been guiding along by some Invisible Touch), then I would be more inclined to accept a deterministic worldview. But as it stands, I believe that we have free will to do as we please. Plus, going back to the whole Calvinist prospect, don't you think it'd be silly if everything were predestined? I'm invoking a reductio ad absurdum argument here; consider if all our actions, good or bad, were predestined. In such a world, crimes wouldn't be justly punishable because they weren't done by choice; and acts of heroism and great innovation would not be laudable, due to them being mechanical acts of artifice. Thus, in a deterministic worldview, the judicial system makes no sense, and drama largely has no place in the world. Nice subject, Erik! |
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Post by vinxi on Mar 17, 2015 14:10:38 GMT -8
Erwin I agree with you, but I also believe in a compounding effect that can be argued is a kind of predestined reality. There are certainly axioms and constraints imposed by natural laws which, as you point out, may be owed to a single event~ Which is not a case for a human-figured-intelligence... only to say that from this view, free will within constraints is not entirely free, therfore I'm caught in the middle between you and with Erik's mate. Just to expand a bit more on the compounding effect -- everything-everything is interconnected and interdependent in such a way that concepts of individuality and independence don't mean exactly what we might expect that they do (as is the case with free will). When you view everything - everything as a system (made up of complex systems nested within complex systems) then you might be able to view this system as a fractal pattern. At each iteration, the pattern repeats itself; whether you zoom in or you zoom out, it's the same. This is how I'd like to talk about the agents within the system -- you and I. Not only are we completely embedded in the system, but the system is such that any point you choose to focus on, meaning wherever there arises the phenomenon of self (I call this localized consciousness), the pattern persists. Put another way~ look at a mobius strip, and mentally label each side "inherit" and "abstract". Now mentally walk the strip noticing which side you're on~ and that is all I'm trying to say: the nature of this system is itself dual, however, it is simultaneously "free will" and "deterministic"... "all as one" and "one as all". The game is that when you become aware of one side it is at the expense of losing focus of the other. I imagine Sisyphus is happiest when he's simply feeling the sensations of his experience~ like a mirror that reflects whatever arises. Keep on pushin! ;D
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Post by Erwin on Mar 17, 2015 14:23:10 GMT -8
I think you're taking a more mathematical/calculated approach to the issue; I find it a bit difficult to understand what you're saying because I'm unfamiliar with a lot of the terms you're using, such as "fractal patterns," "mobius strips," and "complex systems..."
But I think I get the general idea of what you're saying. And to add to that, it's very well possible that we don't actually have consciousness and free will, and that the sum of our actions and "choices" are determined by neurological pathways in the brain. Or something like that. I'm not a neuro-scientist, so I don't know the technical terms.
There's also the whole prospect of there only being one knowable reality. The sum of what we are and how we see the world can be said to be a result of the actions and choices we have made. We do not know how the world would be in a hypothetical situation in which we chose to do certain things differently. And we never will know. So it can therefore be said that there's only one reality, unless you prescribe to the multiverse theory (which is true, but not scientifically demonstrable--at least not yet). And since there's only one knowable reality, does this mean that things are determined to be as they are? I'm not quite sure, but I don't think so. Theoretically, I believe that some aspects of the world could be different if different choices were made by different people, and although we can't demonstrate that for certain, it logically makes sense.
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Post by vinxi on Mar 17, 2015 14:24:21 GMT -8
Err.. failed to explicitly mention (it was certainly implied by mention of constraints) how the fact that we only have available at any given moment a finite number of possible choices to make is what I take to mean that our world is deterministic, i.e. the system dictates what choices are available, regardless of whether or not it is the agent that is able to choose the red pill or the blue pill... (mf, maybe I want a purple pill?)
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Post by Erwin on Mar 17, 2015 14:33:50 GMT -8
Ah, makes sense. Fair enough. I agree and don't think that free will can ever truly be absolute.
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Post by vinxi on Mar 17, 2015 14:47:46 GMT -8
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Post by Hobo on Mar 17, 2015 16:50:39 GMT -8
 jesus christ, & here i was thinking in a simple way... (ok maybe not who knows depends on ur brain function) 1) sht happens cuz of another (with the thought of the chain reaction theory <not even sure if theres one but makes me look abit smarter shhh, cuz nothing happens if nothing happens fk the big bang) & u are stuck to deal with it or else more sht happens 2a) theres basically 3 choices & an extra >deal with it >change it if that didnt work >fk it & leave >do something random & unrelated & go back to the 3 original choices 2b) or if ur too confused with the shty situation ur given theres always ways to find out, then back to 2a ^ Free will makes everything complicated & pretty much what makes humans annoying & the most different from animals (they too pure for u brah). We have the consciousness to do so many shet its bullshitting. Sht like wars so on rage from the results of stupidity of choice. But then again were humans, its not the situation its what ur equipped with to deal with it. "what softens the potato hardens the egg" -some pic in fb bwahahaha but that difference in people's mentality goes a long way. Since scientists of today still struggle with it i only assume its that complicated & is a bitch to work on. Whether their goal is to predict what people think or will do, based on known characteristics of the person & how itll affect their actions with the knowledge of their situation. Or brain wash the foo idk. Military stuff right there mind u. I always thought (to make myself feel better) thered be a sht ton of parallel worlds out there, infinite. Consisting of infinite posibilities i.e half of'em im ded in, i only moved an inch from a push so on < random stuff but theres too many to cover, think big mf  Personally idk how people think its all predestined its either ur too realistic or that ur too delusional & u need go outside son. But to me reality is a shtty game u cant restart on, & what actions u do in this short period of life will determine ur next < religion stuff *sigh dont mind it lol But i wouldnt mind a SIMPLE < PLS JESUS NOT A NOVEL! *cough ahem.. of an explanation ty ty Anywho if what i just said is messed up well w/e i just wanted to share what i thought of it & i was kinda distracted watching documentaries. & don't mind the shtty sentence structure i basically had enuf of L.A for the week. Let me laze here  even if all this is stuped i just had to get all this crap out my head its been bothering me~ also too lazy to read over have the rough draft |
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Post by Erwin on Mar 17, 2015 16:59:44 GMT -8
I think your 1) is a phenomenon known as the "Domino Effect," aptly named because... well, we all know how dominoes work. One Thing Leads to Another.And yeah, you're right in that free will complicates things and makes some people a pain to be around sometimes (you'd probably know that all too well if you spend too much time chatting with me...), but on the flip side, it's what makes life interesting. Double-edged sword, ya know? |
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Post by Lalaloopsy on Mar 21, 2015 15:43:04 GMT -8
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Post by Lalaloopsy on Mar 21, 2015 15:44:25 GMT -8
Watch Interstellar. It's a movie that will freaking question your existence and blowjob your freaking mind
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Post by Erik on Mar 21, 2015 17:37:02 GMT -8
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jesus christ, & here i was thinking in a simple way... (ok maybe not who knows depends on ur brain function)
even if all this is stuped i just had to get all this crap out my head its been bothering me~ also too lazy to read over 
