Post by Often on Mar 27, 2015 7:38:54 GMT -8
Even though these(1 and 2) were reopened, I felt as if this needed its own thread (for it not to go unnoticed like the previous threads).
Due to my knowledge regarding this being very minimal (though, apparently, I seem to be one of the few players that actually even knows anything at all, which is a problem within of itself), I figured I'd make this thread so players get to ask their questions and give their overall opinions and thoughts on the edit- at the same time, this thread will also work as an outlet for the Staff to update us on the details we players are currently lacking. If the information I have received throughout the months of me playing is wrong or outdated then I do sincerely apologize, but then again, that would only further substantiate our claims regarding the lack of communication and transparency.
What we know the staff (Well, only Ace cause he's the one in charge of this project and is the only one that gave us concrete information) thinks if you lurk around in the forum posts (Feel free to comment if you have changed your perspective on certain subjects):
Players only want to see things being changed to their advantage. They do not care if it's not equally fair to everyone else, including their gaming comrades. They are slowly consumed by greed.
I myself do not support such an arrogant behavior; just that was my original intention behind the idea to develop said modifications. During that one conversation, i mentioned that it is fairly hard, if not impossible, to develop a proper balancing between the different classes available in the game, and that i see no way around applying some negative changes (nerfs) along with the other, positive modifications.
Didn't even take them a second to reply with massive, insulting, enraged flaming. I have been told that if i am going to release files which include nerfs to their character class, they would go ahead and leave the server, or avoiding them by not downloading the new files (which is a ban-able offense to our server rules, by the way). That coming from players who appear to be very horny for their upper spots in the rankings, playing currently superior classes - what a surprise. Though they seem to have forgotten to let me finish my argumentation, so they missed to hear about the positive aspects of my work for themselves.
[...] I have always been listening to our playerbase and tried to realize as many of their wishes for new game contents as i could. However, i am aware of the fact that it is impossible to please everyone. There will always be some who dislike, but on the other hand there are also those who appreciate our work. It's just lame to ask for new additions at first, and then backfire at us once it has been realized, telling us you never wanted that. If you do not want to see any kind of new contents, do not hesitate to say so. Just quit demanding for it in that case. You're wasting everyone's time by doing so.[...]Some words to everyone else who has any questions, concerns or whatever to the whole skill modifications thing.
This is far away from being realized. Even within the staff team, we have yet to decide whether we are going to do such an update or not, and where we would set our limits.[...]I tested each and every class on the same Level with equivalent equipment items; god-tier yet possible to obtain on Noble-Story (there are even some which overpower my test subjects)According to the (small amount of) information we have accumulated so far from the forum + from lurking around in-game for months:
There is a plan in place to remove the %damage added from SE and leave the %crit chance intact.
Hurricane will get a slight damage boost to make up for the lack of %damage added from SE.
Strafe will most likely receive a similar boost to make up the damage for Marksmen.
Battleship Cannons damage is being decreased.
Brandish damage is being decreased.
Assassinate/BStep is being increased.
Spear Crusher is being increased.
(I assume?) Blast is being increased.
DPS Test:
Initial basis + First damage test:
• The character had the best equips available
• The character used its strongest skill on a single monster (Snail).
• Self-buffed
Supplementary items/buffs used in a second/third damage test:
• Second test: Naricain's Demon Elixir
• Third test: Naricain's Demon Elixir + SE
I don't have any saved information of the DPS (Damage per second) that the jobs reached in the different test; So I'm going off of memory (maybe a Staff member can fill us in on the details). I will simply rank them without mentioning the damage cause I might fuck that up really bad. I also can't recall any information about Buccs or Marksmen so I won't include them.
First test (Self buffed):
Heros
Sairs
BMs
Sins
DKs
Paladins
Dits
Second test (Self buffs + Naricain's Demon Elixir):
X. I have no idea. It might be the same due to it simply increasing a person attack, but it might also benefit skills that have multiple hits (i.e TT, Spear crusher, Cannon) rather than skills that have single hits (i.e Hurricane, Blast). As I said; No idea.
Third damage test (Self buffs + Naricain's Demon Elixir + SE):
Sins/ Heros
Sairs
BMs/DKs
Paladins
Dits
As you can probably tell; Due to the %damage from SE-- Sins receive an immense damage boost, therefore, removing the #damage from SE would make sense, right? Wrong. Let me quote my dear friend Jaeger:
How did I find out about all of this? Certainly not through an increasingly secretive staff. I found out as second-hand knowledge. Now, what about people who weren't online at the time? How should they find out about such important knowledge like this? Through the forum, naturally. And yet, has there been one specific post detailing plans for the upcoming skill changes? No there hasn't. Something as major as this should have community engagement from the time it's green-lighted, if not from the outset. Have we had any polls on whether we actually wanted any of these changes? No we have not. Overall it reeks of someone acting unilaterally and attempting to shape the server in his or her own image. Before anyone accuses me of being unfair, let me post this question: Does anyone with the desire to change SE have a BM or an MM? No. Moreover, does anyone currently in the staff have either of these classes? A resounding no. One cannot take a one-dimensional outlook on this skill and decide "it increases damage so it must be nerfed." Consider the consequences; it's neither nostalgic nor necessary, and it completely changes the way a class is played. Damage isn't everything.
Let me further add that; Because the test was done on a Snail that simply sits there and tanks damage, the test, unfortunately, becomes very flawed due to lacking the "circumstance" factor, together with some other important factors.
What's not mentioned in this test is:
• Overall circumstance
• The job advancements mobility
• Certain self-buffs and passive skills
• The specifics of which attack(ing) skills use
• The characters (base) HP and avoidability
Self-buff/Attack skill used/(Characters HP): (Comparing Warriors) Regardless of the DPS established from testing it out on a snail; DrKs (Spear crusher) and Heros (Brandish) DPS will instantly triple by simply adding 2 more snails to the equation. However, on the other side of the spectrum, a DrK will be 200% weaker if the test is made on a boss that does more than 50% of the DrKs HP (i.e Anego), due to the DrK not being able to use Berserk. (To say nothing of Paladins..rip)
Mobility/(Characters HP)/Passive skills: (Comparing ranged jobs) If the test was done on a boss with a long ranged attack (i.e Top right/left Zak arms, The Boss, Kacchhu Musha aka Samurai in ninja castle etc) both a BM and NL would out-damage a Sair due to the Sair being so slow (on their ship) to get in position to continue attacking. That also goes for a boss that none of the 3 jobs can tank (i.e Crow), even though Sairs have a slight Base HP advantage (which isn't close enough to tank Crow anyways), BMs and Sins have an advantage where they can (potentially) avoid the attack by moving or maybe even, specifically for sins, just stand still due to having a fuckload of avoidability + the luxury of having Shadow Shifter.
The same conclusion can be made when comparing HP and Accuracy between Melee fighters and Ranged fighters. Depending on what boss you're killing sometimes a Melee is at a higher advantage than a Ranged (i.e BF, Crow) and sometimes a Ranged is at a higher advantage than a Melee (i.e Anego, The Boss).
Now; Do I think that some of the weaker classes should be made stronger? Without a question. Do I think that nerfs to existing skills would be a good idea? Potentially. The problem is that an SE nerf would completely go against everything the server stands for by completely changing the way a class is played, and it is neither nostalgic nor desired by a vast majority of the current player base. Trying to change too much, in this case, would not be a good idea; sometimes less is more. I just hope we can work together constructively with regards to skill changes, and not simply rely on one or two people for ideas.
Discuss.
Due to my knowledge regarding this being very minimal (though, apparently, I seem to be one of the few players that actually even knows anything at all, which is a problem within of itself), I figured I'd make this thread so players get to ask their questions and give their overall opinions and thoughts on the edit- at the same time, this thread will also work as an outlet for the Staff to update us on the details we players are currently lacking. If the information I have received throughout the months of me playing is wrong or outdated then I do sincerely apologize, but then again, that would only further substantiate our claims regarding the lack of communication and transparency.
What we know the staff (Well, only Ace cause he's the one in charge of this project and is the only one that gave us concrete information) thinks if you lurk around in the forum posts (Feel free to comment if you have changed your perspective on certain subjects):
I myself do not support such an arrogant behavior; just that was my original intention behind the idea to develop said modifications. During that one conversation, i mentioned that it is fairly hard, if not impossible, to develop a proper balancing between the different classes available in the game, and that i see no way around applying some negative changes (nerfs) along with the other, positive modifications.
Didn't even take them a second to reply with massive, insulting, enraged flaming. I have been told that if i am going to release files which include nerfs to their character class, they would go ahead and leave the server, or avoiding them by not downloading the new files (which is a ban-able offense to our server rules, by the way). That coming from players who appear to be very horny for their upper spots in the rankings, playing currently superior classes - what a surprise. Though they seem to have forgotten to let me finish my argumentation, so they missed to hear about the positive aspects of my work for themselves.
[...] I have always been listening to our playerbase and tried to realize as many of their wishes for new game contents as i could. However, i am aware of the fact that it is impossible to please everyone. There will always be some who dislike, but on the other hand there are also those who appreciate our work. It's just lame to ask for new additions at first, and then backfire at us once it has been realized, telling us you never wanted that. If you do not want to see any kind of new contents, do not hesitate to say so. Just quit demanding for it in that case. You're wasting everyone's time by doing so.[...]Some words to everyone else who has any questions, concerns or whatever to the whole skill modifications thing.
This is far away from being realized. Even within the staff team, we have yet to decide whether we are going to do such an update or not, and where we would set our limits.[...]I tested each and every class on the same Level with equivalent equipment items; god-tier yet possible to obtain on Noble-Story (there are even some which overpower my test subjects)
There is a plan in place to remove the %damage added from SE and leave the %crit chance intact.
Hurricane will get a slight damage boost to make up for the lack of %damage added from SE.
Strafe will most likely receive a similar boost to make up the damage for Marksmen.
Battleship Cannons damage is being decreased.
Brandish damage is being decreased.
Assassinate/BStep is being increased.
Spear Crusher is being increased.
(I assume?) Blast is being increased.
DPS Test:
Initial basis + First damage test:
• The character had the best equips available
• The character used its strongest skill on a single monster (Snail).
• Self-buffed
Supplementary items/buffs used in a second/third damage test:
• Second test: Naricain's Demon Elixir
• Third test: Naricain's Demon Elixir + SE
I don't have any saved information of the DPS (Damage per second) that the jobs reached in the different test; So I'm going off of memory (maybe a Staff member can fill us in on the details). I will simply rank them without mentioning the damage cause I might fuck that up really bad. I also can't recall any information about Buccs or Marksmen so I won't include them.
First test (Self buffed):
Heros
Sairs
BMs
Sins
DKs
Paladins
Dits
Second test (Self buffs + Naricain's Demon Elixir):
X. I have no idea. It might be the same due to it simply increasing a person attack, but it might also benefit skills that have multiple hits (i.e TT, Spear crusher, Cannon) rather than skills that have single hits (i.e Hurricane, Blast). As I said; No idea.
Third damage test (Self buffs + Naricain's Demon Elixir + SE):
Sins/ Heros
Sairs
BMs/DKs
Paladins
Dits
As you can probably tell; Due to the %damage from SE-- Sins receive an immense damage boost, therefore, removing the #damage from SE would make sense, right? Wrong. Let me quote my dear friend Jaeger:
Mar 23, 2015 23:48:49 GMT -8 Jaeger said:
I will come out and say it. If I wanted skills to be like they were in v83, I would play a v83 server. Furthermore, when a new player looks at GTOP100, what do they see as the first word in the advertisement for Noblestory? Nostalgic. For many players including myself, I never played to v83 and do not consider it nostalgic whatsoever. Using SE as an example, Sharp Eyes are what made Bowmen popular at all in Maplestory. You think a Night Lord would party with a character who would not benefit him in some way? Of course not. And that's the idea behind my own class, the Bowmaster. It is meant to be a supportive DPS unit; one who has one of the best buff skills in the game, but is in turn outdamaged by Corsairs and NLs. A nerf to SE would completely change the feel of the class and, for all intents and purposes, make it useless. I personally don't care too much about my damage; I like the fact that I am able to use one of the best buff skills in the game, but am balanced by the fact that I do not have first-tier damage. The proposed SE change completely removes half of the equation. If I wanted damage as a ranged class so badly, I would go ahead and make an NL or Sair. BMs would be completely trivialized (to say nothing of Marksmen, who get shafted even more in this exchange).How did I find out about all of this? Certainly not through an increasingly secretive staff. I found out as second-hand knowledge. Now, what about people who weren't online at the time? How should they find out about such important knowledge like this? Through the forum, naturally. And yet, has there been one specific post detailing plans for the upcoming skill changes? No there hasn't. Something as major as this should have community engagement from the time it's green-lighted, if not from the outset. Have we had any polls on whether we actually wanted any of these changes? No we have not. Overall it reeks of someone acting unilaterally and attempting to shape the server in his or her own image. Before anyone accuses me of being unfair, let me post this question: Does anyone with the desire to change SE have a BM or an MM? No. Moreover, does anyone currently in the staff have either of these classes? A resounding no. One cannot take a one-dimensional outlook on this skill and decide "it increases damage so it must be nerfed." Consider the consequences; it's neither nostalgic nor necessary, and it completely changes the way a class is played. Damage isn't everything.
What's not mentioned in this test is:
• Overall circumstance
• The job advancements mobility
• Certain self-buffs and passive skills
• The specifics of which attack(ing) skills use
• The characters (base) HP and avoidability
Self-buff/Attack skill used/(Characters HP): (Comparing Warriors) Regardless of the DPS established from testing it out on a snail; DrKs (Spear crusher) and Heros (Brandish) DPS will instantly triple by simply adding 2 more snails to the equation. However, on the other side of the spectrum, a DrK will be 200% weaker if the test is made on a boss that does more than 50% of the DrKs HP (i.e Anego), due to the DrK not being able to use Berserk. (To say nothing of Paladins..rip)
Mobility/(Characters HP)/Passive skills: (Comparing ranged jobs) If the test was done on a boss with a long ranged attack (i.e Top right/left Zak arms, The Boss, Kacchhu Musha aka Samurai in ninja castle etc) both a BM and NL would out-damage a Sair due to the Sair being so slow (on their ship) to get in position to continue attacking. That also goes for a boss that none of the 3 jobs can tank (i.e Crow), even though Sairs have a slight Base HP advantage (which isn't close enough to tank Crow anyways), BMs and Sins have an advantage where they can (potentially) avoid the attack by moving or maybe even, specifically for sins, just stand still due to having a fuckload of avoidability + the luxury of having Shadow Shifter.
The same conclusion can be made when comparing HP and Accuracy between Melee fighters and Ranged fighters. Depending on what boss you're killing sometimes a Melee is at a higher advantage than a Ranged (i.e BF, Crow) and sometimes a Ranged is at a higher advantage than a Melee (i.e Anego, The Boss).
Now; Do I think that some of the weaker classes should be made stronger? Without a question. Do I think that nerfs to existing skills would be a good idea? Potentially. The problem is that an SE nerf would completely go against everything the server stands for by completely changing the way a class is played, and it is neither nostalgic nor desired by a vast majority of the current player base. Trying to change too much, in this case, would not be a good idea; sometimes less is more. I just hope we can work together constructively with regards to skill changes, and not simply rely on one or two people for ideas.
Discuss.
) and needed to think of another way to settle that. As far as I can remember, this got put on hold when his university work load drastically increased. So unless he's mentioned something that I don't know about, he's not sure how to go through with it if this even ends up happening at all. Along with all of the bs that has seemed to happen within the last couple of months (that I've had mentioned to me within the last week+, along with the current stuff), I doubt he's done much work on it if any.
