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Post by Will on Mar 28, 2015 12:42:57 GMT -8
Eli, I don't think you understand. She's talking about pirates > gunslinger where double shot can't even be compared to lucky 7. That means it only viable to use summersault, but why would a person that's making a gunslinger even put large amounts of str into their stats. Dex for pirates, unless your're already a gunslinger, does not even raise damage by much which makes it very hard to even train with. Knuckles also have the worst damage scaling in the early jobs to the point where it's better to equip some random neutral equip.
Invisible shot is incredibly weak and slow (even with booster) compared to lucky 7 with booster to the point that a sin could just single target all 3 mobs before a gunslinger can kill all three with their mob skill.
Maybe getting your pirate to corsair somewhat makes up for it, but how many corsairs do you actually see on this server? Every single other job far outclasses pirates from 1st up to past 3rd. Mages have the most easiest time to grind and lvl, I don't see how you ever see that i/l have a hard time o.o~.
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Post by elijahwyyatt on Mar 28, 2015 12:46:05 GMT -8
That's because ZAK is not a fair depection of classes, and bossing is not limited to zak / HT.
If we say bossing is limited to them, sure. Assasin's have a higher ability to damage, but bossing isn't limited to just them (and honestly HT runs it looks a lot similair, where as zak everyone get's hit constantly)
But bossing, especially in this .62 server, has many more purposes and abilities than just HT/ZAK, and being a superior dps force allows you to utilitize area bosses much more effectively.
Honestly, Zak seems like an outlier, but w/e. I guess it's the only real big boss the server has ever faced, so maybe i'm being a bit biased with my understanding of HT and PB.
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Bruce
New Member
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Post by Bruce on Mar 28, 2015 12:52:05 GMT -8
That's because ZAK is not a fair depection of classes, and bossing is not limited to zak / HT. If we say bossing is limited to them, sure. Assasin's have a higher ability to damage, but bossing isn't limited to just them (and honestly HT runs it looks a lot similair, where as zak everyone get's hit constantly) But bossing, especially in this .62 server, has many more purposes and abilities than just HT/ZAK, and being a superior dps force allows you to utilitize area bosses much more effectively. Honestly, Zak seems like an outlier, but w/e. I guess it's the only real big boss the server has ever faced, so maybe i'm being a bit biased with my understanding of HT and PB.
Hold on here. No one said it is limited to ZAK/HT, as you mentioned yourselve is that zak hit every1 witch makes it a good boss to compare dmg too. It Works the same way with anyohter boss. Pap/pianus/Lyka/Dodo/Castellan/Samurai and so on. The avoid sins get is far more importent than some people think it is. And Sairs might have like 3x less than sins original avoid, and than dont forget Shadow Shifter again. What i've seen so far when it comes to BF as well. is that an Sin can hit it more times within the frame that a bf is hitable of. And i would only assume that Sairs hit slower than sins and therefor do not hit as many times within the time frame.
But all in all i think that when it comes t DPS its kind of the own persons opnion. Some might say Sairs is best where ohter says NL or BM, it depends on so much.
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Post by elijahwyyatt on Mar 28, 2015 12:57:41 GMT -8
Eli, I don't think you understand. She's talking about pirates > gunslinger where double shot can't even be compared to lucky 7. That means it only viable to use summersault, but why would a person that's making a gunslinger even put large amounts of str into their stats. Dex for pirates, unless your're already a gunslinger, does not even raise damage by much which makes it very hard to even train with. Knuckles also have the worst damage scaling in the early jobs to the point where it's better to equip some random neutral equip. Invisible shot is incredibly weak and slow (even with booster) compared to lucky 7 with booster to the point that a sin could just single target all 3 mobs before a gunslinger can kill all three with their mob skill. Maybe getting your pirate to corsair somewhat makes up for it, but how many corsairs do you actually see on this server? Every single other job far outclasses pirates from 1st up to past 3rd. Mages have the most easiest time to grind and lvl, I don't see how you ever see that i/l have a hard time o.o~. I'm not saying put any more str in than neccessary. Dex adds damage to summersault aswell! Even if you take the base req str for a lvl 30 gun, and only added in that much str (30) and put the rest into dex, you go very quickly through 1st job compared to trying to use double shot. But since you all seem so adamant about it, sure i'm wrong. I played gunslinger when they were first released (literally), and i went up pretty quickly. It only took me a few weeks or so to get through to outlaw, but i see now that there might have been other factors that helped me. Regardless of how weak or strong the 2cd class is, Do you think it justifies them having such amazing damage and massive mobbing ability by 4th job? |
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Post by elijahwyyatt on Mar 28, 2015 13:05:58 GMT -8
That's because ZAK is not a fair depection of classes, and bossing is not limited to zak / HT. If we say bossing is limited to them, sure. Assasin's have a higher ability to damage, but bossing isn't limited to just them (and honestly HT runs it looks a lot similair, where as zak everyone get's hit constantly) But bossing, especially in this .62 server, has many more purposes and abilities than just HT/ZAK, and being a superior dps force allows you to utilitize area bosses much more effectively. Honestly, Zak seems like an outlier, but w/e. I guess it's the only real big boss the server has ever faced, so maybe i'm being a bit biased with my understanding of HT and PB.
"Hold on here. No one said it is limited to ZAK/HT, as you mentioned yourselve is that zak hit every1 witch makes it a good boss to compare dmg too. It Works the same way with anyohter boss. Pap/pianus/Lyka/Dodo/Castellan/Samurai and so on. The avoid sins get is far more importent than some people think it is. And Sairs might have like 3x less than sins original avoid, and than dont forget Shadow Shifter again. What i've seen so far when it comes to BF as well. is that an Sin can hit it more times within the frame that a bf is hitable of. And i would only assume that Sairs hit slower than sins and therefor do not hit as many times within the time frame.
But all in all i think that when it comes t DPS its kind of the own persons opnion. Some might say Sairs is best where ohter says NL or BM, it depends on so much."
You are wrong on this. Zak is unfair because of the sheer ammouint of times you get hit.
Let's say assasin's do 100 damage per second, and in a damageless world battleship'd corsiar do 110. If the boss hiting the battleship'd corsiar makes her damage per second 100 for those surrounding 15 seconds, then it's even if you get hit once ever 15 seconds.
If you get hit LESS than once ever 15 seconds, the corsiar outdamage the nightlord, and if you get hit more the nightlord outdamages the corsiar.
Do you see how this works? So Zakum, whom hits nonstop and constantly, compared to HT (hit's much much less rarely) or any area boss, whom almost all of them you can corner and only very rarely get hit by, corsiar's damage is greater than nightlord's.
But on ZAK who attack's constantly and makes the disparity between hitrates much larger, makes nightlord much more effective in comparison.
We also might have to consider whether both classes have enough damage to push back the enemy monster or not, if we are going to go into that kind of area.
Ofcourse i've explained everything here simplified, there are other factors that hurt nightlord's damage(like their avoid not being 100%) and other things that hurt corsiar's damage (battleship having a durability and then subsequent cooldown) (however in cooldown, the corsiar sitll has the 3rd/4th best single target dps in the game) |
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Post by SdwSlyr606 on Mar 28, 2015 13:29:38 GMT -8
That wasnt meant to sound rude it just seems like Noble is veering off from it's original gms-like lowrate v62 ways. For the most part that ended long long ago starting when we were more or less forced to change the rates. Granted since the very beginning, Kalyb and I wanted to keep the core aspect of things GMS-like while having some customed stuff (Cody/Spindle being the first example that was done 2 1/2 years ago) so people will have other things to do. Mainly since in all reality, GMS was boring as all fuck back then for the most part after a good while. F3. Well, you'll have to thank a past GM in alot of ways as to how things are now whether it's good or bad. I can say that some things got done despite Kalyb and I not being for it, and at times not even being told about it until I saw it in an update thread like the rest of you guys did. In Kalyb's case, he never wanted wz edits but it ultimately got forced upon. On a more related note, the most important thing with skills is trying to fix the rest that don't work completely. I tried getting "you-might-know-whom" to attempt to do so way back when but he'd find every excuse in the book on not to do them.  Nina fixed all that she could at that time, and Kalyb was unsuccessful at doing so in the beginning. Whether or not Vinxi/Geisha are able fix the rest, we'll have to see. |
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Post by elijahwyyatt on Mar 28, 2015 13:41:56 GMT -8
Let me just say this about this whole discussion, sorry. I must have forgotten just how shit the damage formula for gun is, and that does make it very hard for lower levels especially once you reach gunslinger. We can agree on that.  |
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Post by Kimberly on Mar 28, 2015 13:59:00 GMT -8
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Post by Will on Mar 28, 2015 14:38:34 GMT -8
kim go to sleep
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Post by SdwSlyr606 on Mar 28, 2015 16:17:28 GMT -8
Don't start guys. *stares at Kim* As I said before, I won't be hesitant to use the forum banhammer myself if any drama continues after this point. None of us wants this to be the case I'm sure. It's safe to say these skill revamps won't happen (if they were even going to in the first place, as Ace did say things never got past the testing phase). Though for future reference, don't bombard them on wanting something done and then be like "dafaq we never wanted this" once it gets added. It's utterly pointless. Though if there's any suggestions you might have, then you're more than free to suggest them (in a suitable manner ). Something that can be done though for a start is if you guys notice anything odd on a skill, then post it on the "Bugged Skills" thread if it's not already on there. |
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Post by NotFlux on Mar 28, 2015 17:13:49 GMT -8
OR, intead of balancing by nerfing skills, you can add some small buffs.
(Although i know this wont happen anyways cause most of this guys think the server is balanced, want to have some nostalgic experience or whatsover.)
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Nina fixed all that she could at that time, and Kalyb was unsuccessful at doing so in the beginning. Whether or not Vinxi/Geisha are able fix the rest, we'll have to see. 
