|
|
Post by elijahwyyatt on Mar 31, 2015 0:17:20 GMT -8
Here's my opinion on that: Raising NX gained via voting would alter the economy. Not immediately, but it would have consequences. Second, part of the nostalgia of this server is the fact that it is not easy to do all your ventures. Raising NX would not only alter the economy of the server...it would also make it exponentially easier to become godly/obtain godly items. It would also severely lessen the consequences of each action you take in the game. In my opinion the current state of the economy is in shambles. No one sells trophies or maple leaves, and the only way to get them is to exchange valuable items (choas scrolls/white scrolls) or beg for small ammounts directly. The scrolls that drop and are exclusive to gachapons are extremely rare, cuasing some people like shass to rely solely on GM scrolls(do they offer GM for shield?) or choasing weapon attack'd shields for things like Shield for weapon for attack, and anyone else who would use them (heroes, white knights, bandits) But ill give you that this is mostly due to the website's down time(NOT THE SERVER DOWNTIME) because people continued to use NX even while they couldn't vote, causing us to be in a NX recession. That combined with a small exodus, means the normally pretty stable economy is in pretty bad(relatively) shape. Of course, that implies the problem will eventually self correct as people vote and earn nx while spending less than they earn (meaning eventually they have a lump sum that they spend on Gach, fueling the economy)..., but it still feels like a bad rate if you aren't already very established economy wise and level wise (you stop needing as many resets at higher levels, and so your vote to spending ratio decreases, and if you have an established NX base, you don't really need any more nx items(full set of Coupons + fully decked out pet equips and a outfit you like = no use for nx other than gach) If you don't want to increase the nx, i understand, but it seems to imply that the economy right now doesn't need bailing out, ala Roosevelt. 3rdly, the main way become become godly in this server is from white scrolls and choas scrolls obtained through trophies.(and also a few equips obtained from trophies) The avalibility of pacs is important, but only relevant to one item of many many items required to become fully decked out. How do people get white scrolls and choas scrolls? 180 ore. Compared to the 1/75 ish rate of white scrolls in NLC, and the fact it takes even under my plan 5 votes for 33 tickets, that's 12 votes for roughly 1 white scroll (real rate might be higher, im comparing it to the rate i remember much later on) I really don't think 1/2 of a white scroll a week extra will make it 'exponentially easier'. (Remember, we'd only be ADDING half of that, 3k is already given) But i do agree making it easier, even slightly, devalues the work everyone else has already put in, so i rest this debate to the people who are already decked out, since i am inherently biased by the fact i still need a lot more stuff to get any godly gear. |
|
|
|
Post by Erwin on Mar 31, 2015 0:46:49 GMT -8
You know, lots of these problems wouldn't exist if we did a server wipe and got rid of Chaos Scrolls  *coughcough Ace coughcough* |
|
|
|
Post by SdwSlyr606 on Mar 31, 2015 1:13:32 GMT -8
there will never be another wipe. |
|
|
|
Post by Erwin on Mar 31, 2015 1:50:48 GMT -8
On a serious note, I think what you're mentioning, Elijah, is ultimately at its core a problem with human nature, coupled with the lack of active players who already have most of what they already want. People are not inclined to sell trophies, maple leaves, or NX because people are inherently selfish: why would I sell valuable potential white scrolls or NX for money when I need both to further increase the power of my own character? And since I'm not willing to sell trophies or NX, the economy somewhat stagnates because 1) everyone who needs trophies and NX wants it for themselves, and 2) we have no real good use for mesos. After all, what can a billion mesos give me when nobody sells trophies or NX (which I need)? I have 550 million mesos right now, and that supply is steadily growing as I continue to train, and while I still find nothing worth buying on the FM. The problem would be somewhat ameliorated if more of us got to a higher level and started perfecting everything we want. Because if, for example, I get to level 180 or something, and end up perfecting my equipment and character's HP, then I won't really have any use for trophies or NX, thereby allowing me to sell them. But this becomes a problem for two reasons: 1) I would still not be inclined to do so because mesos are worth nothing to me and 2) If my character is already very powerful and has basically accomplished everything, then what point would I even have in playing? None really, and this is why I think most of the highest level people on the server become complacent or quit playing regularly. This of course does nothing to solve anything. But hypothetically speaking, if there were to arise a group of players who achieved high levels and were still willing to play actively despite that, and were still willing to sell trophies and NX, then this would stimulate the economy. However, this is unlikely to happen soon (although I personally plan on doing something like this In The Future To Come.) So what's the best solution? None, really. But there's a saying that "Time heals all wounds," which applies here to an extent. Give it time, and everyone will eventually accumulate more NX and trophies (due to voting and monthly events such as scavenger and iSpy; on a side note, the main reason why the issue you brought up is so obvious right now is because of what you correctly pinpointed to be the lack of voting capacities as well as iSpy in the recent past). With time, people will have more resources which they can in turn spend for themselves, or choose to use to stimulate the economy. Alternately, there's a less radical solution than my preferred one (server wipe and get rid of chaos scrolls) which is to simply remove chaos scrolls from the game as well as any items which have been obviously chaosed scrolled: this includes any PAC/PGC/Ragged Black Capes above their clean attack stats, any Facestompers above 2 attack, SCGs higher than 20 attack, etc. I know I'll get all kind of shit from this type of suggestion, but hear me out, as I think it'd solve a few issues, both economy wise and gameplay wise. Doing so would bottleneck the preferred rewards from event trophies to mainly White Scrolls, Strawberry Ice Cream, and in some cases, GM Scrolls. As a result, those who have perfected certain pieces of equipment would be more inclined to put their trophies on the market earlier, thereby allowing for a healthier, less stagnant economy in which new players would be able to attain trophies more easily. On the gameplay side, it would eliminate that which arguably causes more of a gameplay unbalance than even discrepancies between classes. You see, even if certain classes are considered "underpowered," it's an evident fact which anyone can see, and if you're going to play that class, you'll eventually figure out that this is the case. It's not a secret, and there's no random chance involved. A nightlord is overpowered because of its core skillset, and random chance is no factor here. Chaos scrolls, by comparison, can make or break the equipment of certain classes by adding anywhere from 2~50 weapon attack (max possible from "perfectly" chaosed PAC and FS). Realistically, most of the higher levels here tend to have around 35-40 at most from these chaos scrolls. But 35-40 weapon attack which would be unobtainable otherwise--think about that. That's huge. And it's completely reliant on luck, meaning that a lucky shadower or paladin for instance could in theory out-dps a dark knight or night lord with horrible RNG luck. Is that fair? No. Is that balanced? No. Is it nostalgic? No--I only once ever saw a facestomper above 5 attack back on GMS and that was considered "godly"--but white scrolls and free NX among other things aren't exactly "nostalgic" either so this point is a bit weaker. Of course, since my experience with chaos scrolls has been godawful, it's quite apparent why I of all people would want them removed. I get that. But the plus side of my negative experiences with chaos scrolls is that it allows me to see what's fundamentally flawed with the system, an observation which I might not be able to make, had I gotten absurdly lucky with the system. And hey--I still recognize the problems with the white scroll system, despite having 7/15 10%s work on my sparta, among other bouts of good luck with 10% scrolls. It's a system which awards good luck over hard work, and that bothers me to an extent. But it's a hell of a lot better of a system than the absurdity that is the chaos scroll because we can at least guarantee than an item won't end up worse for the wear after we blow dozens of trophies and scrolls on it. With chaos, there is no such certainty. Chaos scrolls, to me at least, invoke the feeling of existential angst--Nausea, as Jean-Paul Sartre would put it. And that's the final, most compelling reason why I'm writing this impassioned tirade against chaos scrolls. Go on, hate me. |
|
|
|
Post by Ace on Mar 31, 2015 2:44:55 GMT -8
Excellent observations, Erwin. Of course not everything is pinpointed here, but considering that you haven't been here for that long already, you have hit quite a few core aspects. I encourage everyone who is here to re-experience the "Nostalgia" factor of the game to read this post; especially the 2 last paragraphs. Of course his statements are, along with all other posts in this thread, based on a personal opinion. I, for my part, have similar ideals and therefore show support. |
|
|
|
Post by elijahwyyatt on Mar 31, 2015 8:31:18 GMT -8
On a serious note, I think what you're mentioning, Elijah, is ultimately at its core a problem with human nature, coupled with the lack of active players who already have most of what they already want. People are not inclined to sell trophies, maple leaves, or NX because people are inherently selfish: why would I sell valuable potential white scrolls or NX for money when I need both to further increase the power of my own character? And since I'm not willing to sell trophies or NX, the economy somewhat stagnates because 1) everyone who needs trophies and NX wants it for themselves, and 2) we have no real good use for mesos. After all, what can a billion mesos give me when nobody sells trophies or NX (which I need)? I have 550 million mesos right now, and that supply is steadily growing as I continue to train, and while I still find nothing worth buying on the FM. The problem would be somewhat ameliorated if more of us got to a higher level and started perfecting everything we want. Because if, for example, I get to level 180 or something, and end up perfecting my equipment and character's HP, then I won't really have any use for trophies or NX, thereby allowing me to sell them. But this becomes a problem for two reasons: 1) I would still not be inclined to do so because mesos are worth nothing to me and 2) If my character is already very powerful and has basically accomplished everything, then what point would I even have in playing? None really, and this is why I think most of the highest level people on the server become complacent or quit playing regularly. This of course does nothing to solve anything. But hypothetically speaking, if there were to arise a group of players who achieved high levels and were still willing to play actively despite that, and were still willing to sell trophies and NX, then this would stimulate the economy. However, this is unlikely to happen soon (although I personally plan on doing something like this In The Future To Come.) So what's the best solution? None, really. But there's a saying that "Time heals all wounds," which applies here to an extent. Give it time, and everyone will eventually accumulate more NX and trophies (due to voting and monthly events such as scavenger and iSpy; on a side note, the main reason why the issue you brought up is so obvious right now is because of what you correctly pinpointed to be the lack of voting capacities as well as iSpy in the recent past). With time, people will have more resources which they can in turn spend for themselves, or choose to use to stimulate the economy. Alternately, there's a less radical solution than my preferred one (server wipe and get rid of chaos scrolls) which is to simply remove chaos scrolls from the game as well as any items which have been obviously chaosed scrolled: this includes any PAC/PGC/Ragged Black Capes above their clean attack stats, any Facestompers above 2 attack, SCGs higher than 20 attack, etc. I know I'll get all kind of shit from this type of suggestion, but hear me out, as I think it'd solve a few issues, both economy wise and gameplay wise. Doing so would bottleneck the preferred rewards from event trophies to mainly White Scrolls, Strawberry Ice Cream, and in some cases, GM Scrolls. As a result, those who have perfected certain pieces of equipment would be more inclined to put their trophies on the market earlier, thereby allowing for a healthier, less stagnant economy in which new players would be able to attain trophies more easily. On the gameplay side, it would eliminate that which arguably causes more of a gameplay unbalance than even discrepancies between classes. You see, even if certain classes are considered "underpowered," it's an evident fact which anyone can see, and if you're going to play that class, you'll eventually figure out that this is the case. It's not a secret, and there's no random chance involved. A nightlord is overpowered because of its core skillset, and random chance is no factor here. Chaos scrolls, by comparison, can make or break the equipment of certain classes by adding anywhere from 2~50 weapon attack (max possible from "perfectly" chaosed PAC and FS). Realistically, most of the higher levels here tend to have around 35-40 at most from these chaos scrolls. But 35-40 weapon attack which would be unobtainable otherwise--think about that. That's huge. And it's completely reliant on luck, meaning that a lucky shadower or paladin for instance could in theory out-dps a dark knight or night lord with horrible RNG luck. Is that fair? No. Is that balanced? No. Is it nostalgic? No--I only once ever saw a facestomper above 5 attack back on GMS and that was considered "godly"--but white scrolls and free NX among other things aren't exactly "nostalgic" either so this point is a bit weaker. Of course, since my experience with chaos scrolls has been godawful, it's quite apparent why I of all people would want them removed. I get that. But the plus side of my negative experiences with chaos scrolls is that it allows me to see what's fundamentally flawed with the system, an observation which I might not be able to make, had I gotten absurdly lucky with the system. And hey--I still recognize the problems with the white scroll system, despite having 7/15 10%s work on my sparta, among other bouts of good luck with 10% scrolls. It's a system which awards good luck over hard work, and that bothers me to an extent. But it's a hell of a lot better of a system than the absurdity that is the chaos scroll because we can at least guarantee than an item won't end up worse for the wear after we blow dozens of trophies and scrolls on it. With chaos, there is no such certainty. Chaos scrolls, to me at least, invoke the feeling of existential angst--Nausea, as Jean-Paul Sartre would put it. And that's the final, most compelling reason why I'm writing this impassioned tirade against chaos scrolls. Go on, hate me. Removing white scrolls, however, would leave people with the only option of using 30%'s, which is a 1/4600~ chance. + they'd be forced to constantly use NLC gacha, and nx would need to become the staple. (i know you're not advocating for that, but i figured i'd mention it) Removing choas scrolls would make it so that people had to grind things that dropped them(there are many). Which is good and bad, together. It would hyper inflate the prices of choas scrolls, creating a ologopoly that only extremely well funded and high level players could join. Basically, it would separate 'the classes' by leaps and bounds, instead of now where everyone is pretty much equal in terms of oppurtunity. (if i want a choas scroll, i can farm it, or i can farm ore, pretty much just as quickly as most high levels can do the same) IT doesn't make them equal of course, but we all are playing on a roughly equal playing field. It's always going to be a lot easier for higher levels, but right now it's not an insane difference, which is what would happen if we removed all choasing and choas scrolls from the trophies. The only way non high levels could compete would be by making them farm on choas scroll droppers. (unfair) However, like you mention, seeing 25+ attack pacs and facestompers is rediculous, and does absolutely fundamentally alter the nature of the balance of the game. (for one it makes night lord's even that much more far and above, because a weapon attack to a night lord is literally the most effective thing you can give to a night lord) You could still have one even if they removed these em from trophies/reset server, but it'd more accurately reflect the sheer unbelievable advantage they possess. A + 25 attack shoe or cape should be though of in the majestic awe that it really is, and not in the '200 ish trophies and 20 pacs, easy 15-18+ PAC' Also, i do and don't like the sound of a reset. The only time and place i'd consider it is if everyone else wanted one too, otherwise im against it absolutely, because if even one player lost days and days of training against their will, i'd feel just awful, and it would be so unfair. Speak about rng all you want, but taking away someone's reward for all their effort after they show such tremendous dedication, is just low. |
|
|
|
Post by Erwin on Mar 31, 2015 11:42:52 GMT -8
I think you slightly misunderstood my proposition, which was to completely eradicate chaos scrolls from the game: make them absolutely unavailable, via trophies, grinding, or otherwise.
It's a semi-serious proposition at best, because at this point, the server's too far gone in the way of chaos scrolls and even though the system is inherently flawed as I pointed out, then nothing can be done at this point which wouldn't have huge ramifications to everyone who already has items. So at this point, it's something of a necessary evil. And probably the only thing I dislike about NobleStory. Is it a big deal to me? Somewhat. But there are enough good things about the server to keep me going.
|
|
|
|
Post by elijahwyyatt on Mar 31, 2015 15:57:24 GMT -8
I think you slightly misunderstood my proposition, which was to completely eradicate chaos scrolls from the game: make them absolutely unavailable, via trophies, grinding, or otherwise. It's a semi-serious proposition at best, because at this point, the server's too far gone in the way of chaos scrolls and even though the system is inherently flawed as I pointed out, then nothing can be done at this point which wouldn't have huge ramifications to everyone who already has items. So at this point, it's something of a necessary evil. And probably the only thing I dislike about NobleStory. Is it a big deal to me? Somewhat. But there are enough good things about the server to keep me going. This is a bit of a biased proposition coming from a warrior, seing as how their damage is the least dependant on weapon attack items  And also, choasing applies to more than just weaponattack shoes and capes.(and gloves) , it applies to deputy pendants, zakum helms, some earings (to gain more dex/int than normally able), it applies to eye accesories (scroll an eye mask to +1 dex than use choas to make it worthwhile), broken glasses now that they exist apparently too, etc etc. Then again, i don't know your oppinion on these other uses for choas scrolls, but in my opinion you shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The obvious solution is to make facestompers unscrollable, and same with PAC. (0 slots) (and also replace all currently scrolled pacs and facestompers with max stat for attack versions of themselves/compensate with trophies) I'm not saying either way on THAT idea, but it's thousands of times more reasonable than just removing choas alltogther. But i also don't fully agree that it is a huge problem, i mean i think Shass has one of the best facestompers in the game and she's a warrior, so it's not like everyone isn't abusing it already anyways, just because it benefits assasin's a little more doesn't mean shass doesn't enjoy doing a considerable ammount more damage, and eanedly too. It's not like forging a facestomper/pac with a lot of attack is easy. Unless you have godly luck, it takes multiple forges/gach's/80+mil buys, and several white and choas scrolls to even get a decent one, let alone near perfect one. |
|
|
|
Post by Erwin on Mar 31, 2015 16:34:07 GMT -8
I'll address all of your points one-by-one.
It's a biased proposition coming from someone who has horrible luck with chaos scrolls, granted. But weapon attack still helps out warriors in more ways than you might think. A 12 attack work glove alone makes a 450 damage difference in my max range. That's 4500 per brandish, per target. And with 80 brandishes per minute, that's ~360,000 damage per minute due to 12 weapon attack alone, on a single target. On zakum arms or skeles? That's over a million damage per minute. But that's irrelevant, really. I never brought up anything about weapon attack scaling and I honestly don't see why that needs to be part of the discussion. It's irrelevant. Actually, now that I think about it, your own points undermine others which you made: since assassins have the highest weapon attack/damage scaling, then it makes your class (assassin) even more powerful. And yet you accuse me of being biased in that regard.
The examples which I provided are two of the most noticeable and practical uses for chaos scrolls. Let's be realistic here: do you know anyone, anyone at all, who uses chaos scrolls on earrings or eye accessories?
No, the "obvious solution" is not to make facestompers and PACs unscrollable because for one thing, that's simply displacing the un-nostalgic factor we currently have (with many people running around with absurd attack PAC/FS) and sublimating it with another, in that previously scroll-able items would be un-scrollable. There's nothing wrong with being able to scroll a cape with strength, luck, dex, int, the conventional way. That's how the rest of the system works and it's internally consistent. And no, your suggestion to replace all currently scrolled PACs and FS with "max stat attack versions" would create an even larger, obvious problem. Coming from someone who just a few posts earlier was disparaging the current state of the economy, these words are surprising. Were this to happen, do you not realize what the obvious economic implication would be? It would mean that the current PACs and FS would astronomically rise in price, to say the least. And in terms of gameplay, it would again do nothing to ameliorate the current unbalance which chaos scrolls pose to the game. You seemed to have missed my point entirely on that one. Contrary to your assertions, my suggestion is the one which is "a thousand of times more reasonable" than yours.
Ironically, your last paragraph sums up what I've been saying very well. "It's not like forging a facestomper/pac with a lot of attack is easy. Unless you have godly luck." And you see, this is precisely my point. It's simply dumb luck. Some people can get a 20 attack PAC or whatnot within two or three tries; others will never be able to make it. And again, like I said earlier, this isn't fair in the least. It's maplestory showing favoritism to those with good luck, and what it's doing in this case is adding another layer of luck to scrolling which should never have been added. At least with the system of white scrolls and 10%s, due to the system of mathematical limits as they relate to infinitesimals, we are "almost surely" guaranteed a decent item as we throw more scrolls at an item. On the other hand, this same system of limits guarantees us no certainty when using Chaos Scrolls, since as the amount of scrolls rises, the chance of massively fucking up an item increases along with any chance of making it better. Mathematically, Chaos Scrolls are a game-breaking anomaly which follows a completely different system apart from any other in the game.
And again, why are you bringing up irrelevant points into the discussion? I never said anything about Shassia and yet you see fit to mention her twice when her example really adds nothing to your point or does anything to rebut my point.
So my original points still stand. Chaos scrolls further skew the balance of the game, make the dps-game something of a demarchy in which the randomly-chosen few rule the current dps scene, and add nothing to the game in terms of a nostalgic 0.62 experience. In other words, chaos scrolls are not balanced, they are not fair in any way, and the current system is not nostalgic.
|
|
|
|
Post by Will on Mar 31, 2015 17:02:46 GMT -8
what is this nx recession this guy speaks o.o~ (coming from a guy that doesn't buy anything, nor sell anything, and farms for items and ores all day hue)
Edit: RIP half of my trophies because I used them on chaos scrolls only to have them taken away =/
|
|
|
|
Post by elijahwyyatt on Mar 31, 2015 17:55:15 GMT -8
I'll address all of your points one-by-one. It's a biased proposition coming from someone who has horrible luck with chaos scrolls, granted. But weapon attack still helps out warriors in more ways than you might think. A 12 attack work glove alone makes a 450 damage difference in my max range. That's 4500 per brandish, per target. And with 80 brandishes per minute, that's ~360,000 damage per minute due to 12 weapon attack alone, on a single target. On zakum arms or skeles? That's over a million damage per minute. But that's irrelevant, really. I never brought up anything about weapon attack scaling and I honestly don't see why that needs to be part of the discussion. It's irrelevant. Actually, now that I think about it, your own points undermine others which you made: since assassins have the highest weapon attack/damage scaling, then it makes your class (assassin) even more powerful. And yet you accuse me of being biased in that regard. The examples which I provided are two of the most noticeable and practical uses for chaos scrolls. Let's be realistic here: do you know anyone, anyone at all, who uses chaos scrolls on earrings or eye accessories? No, the "obvious solution" is not to make facestompers and PACs unscrollable because for one thing, that's simply displacing the un-nostalgic factor we currently have (with many people running around with absurd attack PAC/FS) and sublimating it with another, in that previously scroll-able items would be un-scrollable. There's nothing wrong with being able to scroll a cape with strength, luck, dex, int, the conventional way. That's how the rest of the system works and it's internally consistent. And no, your suggestion to replace all currently scrolled PACs and FS with "max stat attack versions" would create an even larger, obvious problem. Coming from someone who just a few posts earlier was disparaging the current state of the economy, these words are surprising. Were this to happen, do you not realize what the obvious economic implication would be? It would mean that the current PACs and FS would astronomically rise in price, to say the least. And in terms of gameplay, it would again do nothing to ameliorate the current unbalance which chaos scrolls pose to the game. You seemed to have missed my point entirely on that one. Contrary to your assertions, my suggestion is the one which is "a thousand of times more reasonable" than yours. Ironically, your last paragraph sums up what I've been saying very well. "It's not like forging a facestomper/pac with a lot of attack is easy. Unless you have godly luck." And you see, this is precisely my point. It's simply dumb luck. Some people can get a 20 attack PAC or whatnot within two or three tries; others will never be able to make it. And again, like I said earlier, this isn't fair in the least. It's maplestory showing favoritism to those with good luck, and what it's doing in this case is adding another layer of luck to scrolling which should never have been added. At least with the system of white scrolls and 10%s, due to the system of mathematical limits as they relate to infinitesimals, we are "almost surely" guaranteed a decent item as we throw more scrolls at an item. On the other hand, this same system of limits guarantees us no certainty when using Chaos Scrolls, since as the amount of scrolls rises, the chance of massively fucking up an item increases along with any chance of making it better. Mathematically, Chaos Scrolls are a game-breaking anomaly which follows a completely different system apart from any other in the game. And again, why are you bringing up irrelevant points into the discussion? I never said anything about Shassia and yet you see fit to mention her twice when her example really adds nothing to your point or does anything to rebut my point. So my original points still stand. Chaos scrolls further skew the balance of the game, make the dps-game something of a demarchy in which the randomly-chosen few rule the current dps scene, and add nothing to the game in terms of a nostalgic 0.62 experience. In other words, chaos scrolls are not balanced, they are not fair in any way, and the current system is not nostalgic. The reasons i mentioned those things is because part of my perfect item set was using the earings that drop from the boss, and choasing it to +7, then scrolling it to +15 dex easily. Using the fact mask to get a pretty easy +4-6 base with 3-5 slots left, for an easy extra 6-8 dex from eye. This was ofcourse before i realized you can't go below 25 dex, and now these aren't neccessary, but nonetheless, i was going to do it eventually. Max stat capes/boots i meant blue versions of the base item with 0 scrolls, to reward the fact they had scrolled it already and to reward teh effort they are losing a little bit. you know, because items have a range of base stats, and that would give them the max base stats. Sorry if my wording was confusing. Also, i think you fundementally don't remember maplestory. It's always been like this, maplestory's always rewarded goodluck unfairly. I remember buying scroll's in the FMs and destroying plenty of gear, and other people who had +6/+7 weapons with the yellow glow and feeling gyped. And then one day i got lucky and got a +7 (6 30%'s, 1 70%'s) and i felt amazing. and then none of the other items i ever tried making ever turned out godly. It's like gambling,(because it is), but short story, it's literally always been this way. I gaurentee you if you removed white scroll's you understand this problem even more. You'd go 'this one guy got 6 10%'s/30%'s to work on his final weapon but i can only make it up to +3. It's the same thing, but because the luck factor doesn't take away (WITH 10%'s) it's okay? It's the same, either way. Fundementally what you are arguing for is you want everything to be gaurenteed. You want your effort to be absolutely succeful, given a 'reaonsable' ammount of tries. That's fine to want that, but it's not so fine if you take away from other people's good fortunes to achieve it. You see what i mean? It's one thing to want the world to be fair, but it's another to kill all life (including yourself) to make it fair. (which would make everything fair and equal. Everyone get's a bullet in the brian, that's fair. fairly dead) The way i see it, choasing is a 1/10 chance. a 4/10 chance if you just want positive to happen. If you white scroll, the odds of this happening to your liking (let's say +2-5 each scroll) is 3/10 x 3/10 x 3/10 x 3/10 x 3/10 which is a .24% chance. (resulting in a 14-29 PAC) So, like, you can't complain till you tried it 400 times... or atleast, that's my thinking. But maplestory is always like this, it's always going to favor the lucky. Think about farming scrolls, some people will find 2 choases while doing 3 levels at undead mushies, i've had 4 runs through there for 5 levels each, and only found 1 choas. It's unfair, but that's maplestory. It's fundementally maplestory. To adress your final-ish point about certain players ruling the dps scene, that's absolutely nostalgic. Any time a new world was released, an elite few would control zak helmet's because they were the only ones with all the strong item's. They would use this control to extort an even further advantage by having full control of the economy and full access to countless scrolls. It happened every single time. And then with their massive item lead, they got even further ahead and then did the same thing again but with HT. It's not very fun, but that's what happened. A small party of 4-6 people would form a guild and nerd out on the release+buy tons of 2x till they could zak and then controlled the entire landscape with unparralled damage and money, and it wouldn't be till other independant groups joined guilds and got to the higher levels later that anyone could challenge their monopolies. But, i mean, i don't know how into maplestory you got as a kid, or how long ago you really played, but .62 was around (more like .7-ish) upon introduction of white scrolls to the masses, (they changed gach rate, and announced white scrolls and created numerous events making gach more popular) and this created an even further devide between the have's and have nots, literally the top 10 people's damage dwarfed everyone else's, and all because of items. But yah, i feel like choas scrolls are nostalgic. I remember farming the snakes for literally 2 days till i got a choas, and then running straight to market and selling it for around 50m. (which on that server was A LOT!!!!) 10% dex's were commonly like 1m, so that's 50 of those. But, w/e. It's fine to have disagreeing opinions  |
|
|
|
Post by elijahwyyatt on Mar 31, 2015 17:57:53 GMT -8
what is this nx recession this guy speaks o.o~ (coming from a guy that doesn't buy anything, nor sell anything, and farms for items and ores all day hue) Edit: RIP half of my trophies because I used them on chaos scrolls only to have them taken away =/ By nx recession i mean the lack of trophies and maple leaves being sold in the free market due to the availibilty of items on said free market not being enough to prompt people to value money. This often creates an economy based off of objects instead of money, which is bad for an economy. (aka give me 1 trophy and 2 leaves for an illibus, etc) |
|
|
|
Post by deadpool on Apr 27, 2015 20:32:02 GMT -8
What are the things that you like about on here? Awesome server, community and GM F2 I also love the monthly events like SH ^__^ Also the rewards for doing special stuff and skillbook 30 ^^ What are the things that you don't like about on here? No Aran skin, and lagg sometimes, only event in weekend! What would you like to see changed if anything?
I would love it if changing hair/eyes would cost 1m mesos so it doesnt take too long to change your hair/face Also as Will said, some scrolls are so low rate  ^^^^^ Says it all, having to vote and wait like 3 weeks for exp hair is a drag, perhaps increase the cost of exp ones (because they got the cool hair) to 2M each |
|
|
|
Post by NotFlux on Apr 28, 2015 7:59:20 GMT -8
By nx recession i mean the lack of trophies and maple leaves being sold in the free market due to the availibilty of items on said free market not being enough to prompt people to value money. This often creates an economy based off of objects instead of money, which is bad for an economy. (aka give me 1 trophy and 2 leaves for an illibus, etc) Why would an economy based on objects be bad? Sure, using a common coin makes the economy run smoothly, but that's based on a big scenario. In a server like this one, where the community is rather small, depending on mesos is a big risk, since all those mesos don't have any real value. Players give value to mesos, but their only real utility is for buying pots form NPC's. Mesos don't make you stronger, items do, so it is only fair to exchange items for other items. It doesn't matter how much money you have if you can't use it. The demand on the server is really high, while the supply is low This just make things worse, since it makes all the items meso price skyrocket, causing new players to struggle to get items, while high level players ( especially mages) can grind happily while still getting a huge meso income. Simply put, mesos supply is infinite, while trophies supply is low. Mesos can't be used on anything, while trophies can be used to get the best in-game items. Complaining that you can't buy trophies with mesos is not fair at all. |
|
|
|
Post by NotFlux on Apr 28, 2015 8:35:37 GMT -8
I'll address all of your points one-by-one. So my original points still stand. Chaos scrolls further skew the balance of the game, make the dps-game something of a demarchy in which the randomly-chosen few rule the current dps scene, and add nothing to the game in terms of a nostalgic 0.62 experience. In other words, chaos scrolls are not balanced, they are not fair in any way, and the current system is not nostalgic. Regarding This, I would like to began saying luck is an illusion, We all have the same chances of a chaos scroll succeding or failing, so im going to refer to this so-called "luck"as probabilities. That said, when we find ourselves in the end-game scenario, having collected a ton of trophies through the monthly events and whatnot, we get 2 choices, we either try to make our items better with chaos scrolls or with white scrolls. While white scrolls are realtively safely to use, chaos scrolls can either give us a godly item or simply ruin it. Here you are complaining that it's unfair leaving this to probabilities, but most of our lives depend solely on them. Gambling is part of our daily activities and the decision we constantly have to make. If you don't like the idea of leaving your hard-earned trophies to chance, then go for white scrolls. If you decide to leave them to chance, then don't complain if things don't end up as you expected. What if someone got a godly item on the first try? he bet it all on the slight chance of success, so there is nothing unfair about it. That's why I consider chaos to be as fair as white scrolls. There's also the chance to use trophies for white scrolls and grind for chaoses, and if you didn't get the chaos to work, well...... try next time. [PD: I do agree though that the lack of 10% scrolls for cape att, pendants, shoes att, etc is a bit unfair, since it leaves those items to plain probabilities, but there's not much to do if Nexon didn't want to add them. ] |
|
|
|
Post by Erwin on Apr 28, 2015 10:38:37 GMT -8
First of all, you seem to acknowledge the presence and existence of luck in reality ("Gambling is part of our daily activities") while also saying that "luck is an illusion." Your statements seem to be in contention with one another. My stance is that luck is a reality, and while I agree that there is a luck factor in real life (a descriptive statement) I would assert that in a fair world, luck would not exist (a prescriptive statement).
Comparing Chaos Scrolls to the classic White Scroll + 10% combination is a faulty analogy. Here's why. As I might've mentioned earlier (forgot what I said verbatim because it's been too long and I've been busy with other things), you cannot apply the concept of limits to Chaos Scrolls. While you are correct in saying that "everyone has the same chances of a chaos scroll succeding or failing," the way this applies in a practical scenario varies greatly from that which we can observe in the WS/10% scenario.
If we are to invoke the argument ad infinitum argument (which is the best way to truly test statistical probabilities in a binary case as can be observed here with scrolling), then we can see that statistically, as you pour an infinite amount of 10%/WS on an item, the chances of it becoming perfected becomes so close to 100% that it is "almost surely" the case. The concept of limits works here because the possibilities are binary: you have a chance of failing a scroll and nothing happening as a result, and a chance of it working and your item being "permanently" altered for the better.
On the other hand, the prospect of a third outcome as it relates to Chaos Scrolls completely destroys any ability of us to apply the concept of limits to the scrolling scenario. Let's assume for simplicity's sake that every Chaos Scroll works, and that there's a 50% chance of lowering an item's stats and a 50% chance of raising them. As we pour an infinite amount of scrolls into any given item, the chances of an item's stats being irreparably lowered are statistically even with those of an item's stats being raised. In other words, there's no such guarantee, as with White Scrolls/10%s, that you will ever get a good item; it's essentially a 50/50 gamble (for every iteration of a scroll) which you don't experience with White Scrolls. The best tangible analogy we can conjure is using 30% Dark Scrolls in conjunction with White Scrolls: in this situation, we have to rely on an item not blowing up, and, as you and I both know, the chances of an item not blowing up after an infinite amount of iterations is about the same as those of an item being perfected. So it's a gamble. Some get lucky, while most of us don't. Such is not the case with the White Scroll/10% combination. This is why I would disagree with your statement that "Chaos [are] as fair as white scrolls."
|
|
|
|
Post by danielyoo on Apr 28, 2015 10:46:47 GMT -8
If you feel that way... Just dont use chaos scrolls...
Its a game.
Luck is always included in games.
If anyone should be complaining about chais scrolls, it should be me.
I have used countless number of chaos scrolls and white scrolls and thrown away countless number of pacs/fs/scgs.
I still dont have any godly equips.
As a matter of fact, i bought like 50 ws from the last time adam sold his ws and i trophied like 50 more and got 3/like a 100 10% xbows work.
|
|
|
|
Post by danielyoo on Apr 28, 2015 10:51:23 GMT -8
So 10% and ws combos are just as unfair.
If anything, just keep playing to achieve better items.
Its like real life.
You gotta bust your ass to make money.
Hard work always pays off.
|
|
|
|
Post by NotFlux on Apr 28, 2015 11:39:18 GMT -8
First of all, you seem to acknowledge the presence and existence of luck in reality ("Gambling is part of our daily activities") while also saying that "luck is an illusion." Your statements seem to be in contention with one another. My stance is that luck is a reality, and while I agree that there is a luck factor in real life (a descriptive statement) I would assert that in a fair world, luck would not exist (a prescriptive statement). First of all, I said luck was an illusion as the fact when someone acknowledges that his chances are lower compared to those of another person . I.E " He has godly luck" . So when i reffered to "Gambling", i was stating the scenario when you know there is a set percentage of an event happening. In other words, there's no such guarantee, as with White Scrolls/10%s, that you will ever get a good item; it's essentially a 50/50 gamble (for every iteration of a scroll). So it's a gamble. Some get lucky, while most of us don't. Such is not the case with the White Scroll/10% combination. This is why I would disagree with your statement that "Chaos [are] as fair as white scrolls." Anyways, what i meant with fair was that even though the rewards are amazing, the chances are so slim that in the end you would need way more scrolls per att point(i.e) using chaoses when compared with white scrolls. [(1/11)^5 ]*100 = ~0.00062 % of getting a perfected item with chaos scrolls (+ white scrolls) [(1/2)] ^5]*100 = 3,125% of getting a item with at least +4 of the stat you want with chaos (+white scrolls) While you would need theoretically 50 scrolls to make an item perfect with white scrolls and 10%s ~2% So if we pour an infinite amount of chaoses (+ white scrolls), then you would only need 161.290 to make a perfect item.....Pretty good news right? |
|
|
|
Post by Erwin on Apr 28, 2015 12:22:59 GMT -8
So 10% and ws combos are just as unfair. If anything, just keep playing to achieve better items. Its like real life. You gotta bust your ass to make money. Hard work always pays off. Missing the point of my comparison between WS/10% and Chaos Scrolls. Your case highlights the faults of any luck-based systems in MMOs such as these, and as I acknowledged in a previous post, the whole scrolling system is flawed; although the system of Chaos Scrolls is more so, as I have demonstrated. I don't like systems of luck, and I like to see them reduced to certainty and hard work whenever possible; your case saddens me and I wish there were a more linear correlation between hard work and reaped benefits. First of all, you seem to acknowledge the presence and existence of luck in reality ("Gambling is part of our daily activities") while also saying that "luck is an illusion." Your statements seem to be in contention with one another. My stance is that luck is a reality, and while I agree that there is a luck factor in real life (a descriptive statement) I would assert that in a fair world, luck would not exist (a prescriptive statement). First of all, I said luck was an illusion as the fact when someone acknowledges that his chances are lower compared to those of another person . I.E " He has godly luck" . So when i reffered to "Gambling", i was stating the scenario when you know there is a set percentage of an event happening. In other words, there's no such guarantee, as with White Scrolls/10%s, that you will ever get a good item; it's essentially a 50/50 gamble (for every iteration of a scroll). So it's a gamble. Some get lucky, while most of us don't. Such is not the case with the White Scroll/10% combination. This is why I would disagree with your statement that "Chaos [are] as fair as white scrolls." Anyways, what i meant with fair was that even though the rewards are amazing, the chances are so slim that in the end you would need way more scrolls per att point(i.e) using chaoses when compared with white scrolls. [(1/11)^5 ]*100 = ~0.00062 % of getting a perfected item with chaos scrolls (+ white scrolls) [(1/2)] ^5]*100 = 3,125% of getting a item with at least +4 of the stat you want with chaos (+white scrolls) While you would need theoretically 50 scrolls to make an item perfect with white scrolls and 10%s ~2% So if we pour an infinite amount of chaoses (+ white scrolls), then you would only need 161.290 to make a perfect item.....Pretty good news right? In relation to your first statement, I never said that anyone has lower intrinsic "chances" than anyone else; i.e. a 60% scroll does not somehow have a higher chance of working for one person than another. However, in practice, some people demonstrably have better luck than others. If someone were to make a 20 attack Facestompers, even within ten tries (like Conan has), and someone else were to try ten times to scroll Facestompers and have every single one of them go to 0 attack (like Diarrhea has), then the fact is that the latter has experienced worse luck. This is unfair and why I don't like systems with luck. As for your statistics, those are irrelevant and flawed due to us being unable to apply the concept of limits to chances which are not binary. Again, you can apply limits to 10%/White Scrolls but because of the tertiary possible outcome which Chaos Scrolls introduce, we are unable to accurately apply limits to the case. This seems to be a principle that many are unable to grasp. |
|
