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Post by Often on Apr 28, 2015 13:13:30 GMT -8
In relation to your first statement, I never said that anyone has lower intrinsic "chances" than anyone else; i.e. a 60% scroll does not somehow have a higher chance of working for one person than another. However, in practice, some people demonstrably have better luck than others. If someone were to make a 20 attack Facestompers, even within ten tries (like Conan has), and someone else were to try ten times to scroll Facestompers and have every single one of them go to 0 attack (like Diarrhea has), then the fact is that the latter has experienced worse luck. This is unfair and why I don't like systems with luck. Missing the point of my comparison between WS/10% and Chaos Scrolls. Your case highlights the faults of any luck-based systems in MMOs such as these, and as I acknowledged in a previous post, the whole scrolling system is flawed; although the system of Chaos Scrolls is more so, as I have demonstrated. I don't like systems of luck, and I like to see them reduced to certainty and hard work whenever possible; your case saddens me and I wish there were a more linear correlation between hard work and reaped benefits. The exact same conclusion can be drawn between these two statements. You had the benefit of hitting 7 10% on your weapon withing 25ish tries, while others are up to their 80+ tries and have yet to hit 7 of them. You can't be mad at one thing that's based on luck and then ago ahead and say you dislike the system of luck while accepting 10% scrolls, which is based off of luck. Just say you want all scrolls removed-- otherwise you're coming off as a hypocrite. |
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Post by Erwin on Apr 28, 2015 13:17:29 GMT -8
Again, I said in my previous statement that I realize that the entire scrolling system is flawed, and even explicitly stated earlier that I recognize the problems with White Scrolls/10%s. However, I do believe that while all it is flawed, the Chaos Scroll system has more intrinsic problems to it, which I have underscored in my posts. [edit] in case you don't believe me: And hey--I still recognize the problems with the white scroll system, despite having 7/15 10%s work on my sparta, among other bouts of good luck with 10% scrolls. It's a system which awards good luck over hard work, and that bothers me to an extent. But it's a hell of a lot better of a system than the absurdity that is the chaos scroll |
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Post by Often on Apr 28, 2015 13:20:55 GMT -8
^Edited my post slightly. Not sure if it makes a difference regarding your reply. But, you can't completely dismiss one aspect of the game that (initially) is the same for every single player. Either you accept it, ignore it or you simply play another game.
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Post by elijahwyyatt on Apr 28, 2015 13:24:32 GMT -8
By nx recession i mean the lack of trophies and maple leaves being sold in the free market due to the availibilty of items on said free market not being enough to prompt people to value money. This often creates an economy based off of objects instead of money, which is bad for an economy. (aka give me 1 trophy and 2 leaves for an illibus, etc) Why would an economy based on objects be bad? Sure, using a common coin makes the economy run smoothly, but that's based on a big scenario. In a server like this one, where the community is rather small, depending on mesos is a big risk, since all those mesos don't have any real value. Players give value to mesos, but their only real utility is for buying pots form NPC's. Mesos don't make you stronger, items do, so it is only fair to exchange items for other items. It doesn't matter how much money you have if you can't use it. The demand on the server is really high, while the supply is low This just make things worse, since it makes all the items meso price skyrocket, causing new players to struggle to get items, while high level players ( especially mages) can grind happily while still getting a huge meso income. Simply put, mesos supply is infinite, while trophies supply is low. Mesos can't be used on anything, while trophies can be used to get the best in-game items. Complaining that you can't buy trophies with mesos is not fair at all. Because it precludes trades that would otherwise not occur. The reason every country has an economy based on money is because it's a better way to conduct trades, because otherwise you have to find direct people who want your good and have the good that you want, instead of selling your good to anyone who wants it, and buying the good from anyone who's selling. It's basic economics |
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Post by Often on Apr 28, 2015 13:30:22 GMT -8
elijahwyyatt If I have something you want and you have something I want (whether that be money or objects), we figure out a way to (fairly) trade our items. You can't be mad at someone that's running their business off of trading objects. Maybe their motive isn't money.
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Post by NotFlux on Apr 28, 2015 13:39:16 GMT -8
The reason every country has an economy based on money is because it's a better way to conduct trades. It's basic economics I completly agree on that. However, on maple you don't have a government that assures you that your mesos won't lose value. You neither have a high supply of items to buy. That's why i said it is good on a MACRO-scenario, not a 15 ppl server. |
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Post by NotFlux on Apr 28, 2015 13:42:25 GMT -8
As for your statistics, those are irrelevant and flawed due to us being unable to apply the concept of limits to chances which are not binary. Again, you can apply limits to 10%/White Scrolls but because of the tertiary possible outcome which Chaos Scrolls introduce, we are unable to accurately apply limits to the case. This seems to be a principle that many are unable to grasp. Are you trying to say Chaos scrolls dont use a uniform distribution? If not, i would like you to explain this. |
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Post by Erwin on Apr 28, 2015 14:11:49 GMT -8
^Edited my post slightly. Not sure if it makes a difference regarding your reply. But, you can't completely dismiss one aspect of the game that (initially) is the same for every single player. Either you accept it, ignore it or you simply play another game. Lest you think I'm "cherry picking" here, let me draw you an analogy. Let's say that in your house, your kitchen roof has a tiny crack in it and thus a small amount of water gets in every day. While this is happening, the sink is completely inoperable. On which problem would you want to invest time and resources first? I think the answer is obvious. So, too, I would rather address the more crucial issue here rather than the simple leaky faucet or crack in the ceiling. As I've stated twice, the whole white scroll system is imperfect, but tolerable, at least in my eyes. I have my own positions on what a better, fairer, and more hard-work-based system would be, but I'd rather talk about things one step at a time. Are you trying to say Chaos scrolls dont use a uniform distribution? If not, i would like you to explain this. Quite the contrary; I conceded your point earlier about how all scrolls have the same inherent chances of succeeding or failing. A limit is the value that a function approaches as the input reaches a certain value, and as it pertains to scrolling, the limit gradually approaches "1," or 100%, as an infinite amount of iterations have occurred. Limits work when applied to normal scrolls (10%s and 60%s) because there are only two basic outcomes: success and failure. On the other hand, limits cannot be applied in the same way to perfecting items via Chaos Scrolls and Dark Scrolls because of a third option: the chance of negative stats or destruction, respectively. For example, if we were to attempt to perfect an item via 30%s, we would not only have to count on 7 working (which would on average consume 23 1/3 30%s), but we would also have to rely on none of them destroying the item. And the 35% chance of an item exploding even once over 23 iterations... that's a 0.00498% chance of happening (if I did my math correctly). Which is less than one in one hundred thousand. And this is why you don't see anyone using White Scrolls in conjunction with 30%s. So as limits apply to Dark/Chaos, we would not only have to construct a function which calculates the chance of an item being perfected, but we'd also have to construct a function which calculates the chance of an item's stats being permanently lowered (or in darks' case, destroyed), and then we'd have to conflate the two constructed functions into some sort of "super" function. To my knowledge, this is not possible, but you get the general idea. The case with Chaos Scrolls is similar, yet for some reason many people feel fine with Chaos Scrolls while staying away from Dark Scrolls. |
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Post by Often on Apr 28, 2015 15:05:06 GMT -8
Lest you think I'm "cherry picking" here, let me draw you an analogy. Let's say that in your house, your kitchen roof has a tiny crack in it and thus a small amount of water gets in every day. While this is happening, the sink is completely inoperable. On which problem would you want to invest time and resources first? I think the answer is obvious. So, too, I would rather address the more crucial issue here rather than the simple leaky faucet or crack in the ceiling. As I've stated twice, the whole white scroll system is imperfect, but tolerable, at least in my eyes. I have my own positions on what a better, fairer, and more hard-work-based system would be, but I'd rather talk about things one step at a time I honestly do not see any correlation between your analogy and Chaos Scrolls whatsoever. The same way White Scrolls are "tolerable" in your eyes, the exact same thing can be said for other people who, in their eyes, see Chaos Scrolls as tolerable. You can't be mad at someone for buying 2 lotto tickets and winning a hundred-thousand dollars, while you ended up winning nothing after buying 100 lotto tickets-- others simply have better "luck" than others when using Chaos scrolls. The case with Chaos Scrolls is similar, yet for some reason many people feel fine with Chaos Scrolls while staying away from Dark Scrolls. Cause there's no 30% Cape Attack or Shoe Attack. It's also fairly difficult to get a hold of Earring 30%'s and Glove attack 30%'s, so, people rely on Chaos Scrolls, which can be both a gift and a curse. But that's the risk you're forced to take. But, then again, there's a lot of people that prefer to initiate their scrolling with 30%'s that are available (Overall Luk, Overall Dex, some Weapon 30% etc) before moving on to White Scrolls and 10%. The reason most people stay away from Weapon 30%'s on their "end game weapon" is because it's both difficult to get a hold of enough 30% scrolls and a max-stat-clean weapon (especially if you're planning on using a Timeless). So, once they manage to find their weapon of choice, they move on to spending an excess amount of White Scrolls and 10%'s instead of (again, back to:) gambling on 30%'s. |
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Post by Will on Apr 28, 2015 17:20:51 GMT -8
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Post by Crosshair on Apr 28, 2015 18:01:47 GMT -8
WHERE IS THE LOVE?
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Conan
New Member
Clarity 13x/ Conan 13x
Posts: 9 
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Post by Conan on Apr 28, 2015 19:57:38 GMT -8
i dont like porcupines, but i like turtles. thank you for florina beach but eff u mu lung f5
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Reed
New Member
Posts: 45
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Post by Reed on Apr 28, 2015 21:08:27 GMT -8
i dont like porcupines, but i like turtles. thank you for florina beach but eff u mu lung f5 Those porky maps are underrated af. |
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Post by danielyoo on Apr 29, 2015 9:13:38 GMT -8
^Edited my post slightly. Not sure if it makes a difference regarding your reply. But, you can't completely dismiss one aspect of the game that (initially) is the same for every single player. Either you accept it, ignore it or you simply play another game. Simple as this. Could not have been more clear |
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Post by elijahwyyatt on Apr 29, 2015 11:13:28 GMT -8
elijahwyyatt If I have something you want and you have something I want (whether that be money or objects), we figure out a way to (fairly) trade our items. You can't be mad at someone that's running their business off of trading objects. Maybe their motive isn't money. Wasn't saying anything against anyone, i've traded with choas scroll's for illbi, and choas for maple leaves. Not trying to say anything against it, just that it's a worse economy because things worth less than the value of the least valued economically tradeable object(the object worth 'money') become untradable. or only tradable for things that are only tradable for mesos. Plus, unless maple leaves have no value to a person(all good rings, + whatever chair you like) they are worth much more and won't be given away unless the thing they are being traded has immidiate value, which mesos do not. The only way to solve this problem is to get player's to have multiple item's that are not valuable to themselves, but are valuable to others, that they then sell due to the large quantity and inability / unwant to personally haggle for what they want specifically... "Quite the contrary; I conceded your point earlier about how all scrolls have the same inherent chances of succeeding or failing. A limit is the value that a function approaches as the input reaches a certain value, and as it pertains to scrolling, the limit gradually approaches "1," or 100%, as an infinite amount of iterations have occurred. Limits work when applied to normal scrolls (10%s and 60%s) because there are only two basic outcomes: success and failure. On the other hand, limits cannot be applied in the same way to perfecting items via Chaos Scrolls and Dark Scrolls because of a third option: the chance of negative stats or destruction, respectively. For example, if we were to attempt to perfect an item via 30%s, we would not only have to count on 7 working (which would on average consume 23 1/3 30%s), but we would also have to rely on none of them destroying the item. And the 35% chance of an item exploding even once over 23 iterations... that's a 0.00498% chance of happening (if I did my math correctly). Which is less than one in one hundred thousand. And this is why you don't see anyone using White Scrolls in conjunction with 30%s. So as limits apply to Dark/Chaos, we would not only have to construct a function which calculates the chance of an item being perfected, but we'd also have to construct a function which calculates the chance of an item's stats being permanently lowered (or in darks' case, destroyed), and then we'd have to conflate the two constructed functions into some sort of "super" function. To my knowledge, this is not possible, but you get the general idea. The case with Chaos Scrolls is similar, yet for some reason many people feel fine with Chaos Scrolls while staying away from Dark Scrolls. " You can actually calculate the odd's and limit to make perfect a choas/dark scroll, but you have to think of it differently. Instead of thinking of iterations as 'times you use the scroll' you have to think of iterations as 'the number of times you restart from scratch' and you have to think of an iteration as X consecutive tries at whatever rate. So an iteration would be 7 at 30%, or 3/4/7/10 at 10% (because you use white scroll's with it) for choas scroll's. so 10 at 10% 1 x 10^-8 % chance, or .3^7 x 100 % for 7 at 30%, and that's the odd's of an iteration succeeding. Then if you graph THAT chance, the limit eventually approaches 100%. The result of failure doesn't matter, other than that it's an unsucceful iteration  Edit: wrong quote. |
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